The Barnyard Bible Study

A place to discuss the Bible and its implications on life as we know it

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Location: Sacramento Valley,Ca., United States

Just an every day American countryboy, constitutional federalist and God-fearing Patriot.

Sunday, November 06, 2005

History Moves Forward

Chapter 3 of Genesis begins the discussion of the separation and understanding of good and evil. In response to some comments on my evolutionary creationist stance, I consider these ancient studies as brilliant and incredibly beautiful ways to describe the wonders around them. Yes, science has expanded our understanding of the basics of life the sheer complexity and beauty still drives researchers. I as a believer cannot limit the grandeur of His plans or explain them. I love the research that modern scientific study has produced and fear none of it as His omniscience is palpable.


1

Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12

And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13

And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

As we learn from these ancient scrolls our base for the understanding of good verses evil I will offer an argument. God is everything, I interprete that literally and expound that then God is also evil as good can not be represented without evil as then it would not exist as a standard without a negative standard. My readings have tought me the fall of Lucifer is the product of John Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost" not in the Bible unless you extrapolate from the serpent being destined to crawl on its belly that story is nonexistant. For me to say I believe in a Satan is for me to say I believe in two gods, one good, one evil. I believe in one all encompassing God for me represented by Jesus Christ. I have read Nietzche, Blake,Thomas and many other students of the Reformation and the Enlightenment and I found Christ amid the confusion and He has lead me through the minefields of gay marriage and evolution debate. I believe in the God of Abraham and Moses, one God, omnipotent, omniscient and open to us through Christ or Judeo ethics. I am far from being an expert just one who was lost and is now found. I would more closely interprete death as separation from Him as a released soul sent to Him as one sent back to the earth and the torments of life and its eventual decay, not to a seperate god of the underworld. My body will go to science and all those that may benefit from its use for trnsplants and other research and the rest will be burnt and scattered with a Christian ceremony celebrating my life not mourning its loss. I pray I can earn a rightious send off and that is entirely up to me as His servant.

26 Comments:

Blogger William said...

I think that God is not of afraid of the evolution debate either. He just hates that lies have been instituted in order for a 'truth' to emerge. So, now God is unravelling all of the lies so that the real truth will remain.

I don't know if in the Bible it says that God is 'everything,' however. I say that to say that I hesitate calling God evil. Lucifer, of course, was made with a will and a personaility. Just as we have a choice, so did Lucifer: therefore choose life. He did not.

6:00 AM  
Blogger Gyrobo said...

There's something I never understood. Do Christians worship Jesus as a god, or is there a separate god-figure? Because I think there's something against worshipping more than one god in the ten commandments...

--==/ The less you know. \==--

6:10 AM  
Blogger Goat said...

No, Christ is God in the flesh, Robot. William, the fall of Lucifer is not found in the Bible, it is from Milton's Poem "Paradise Lost".

6:29 AM  
Blogger Gyrobo said...

So... Jesus is to God what my robot avatar is to me in the real world?

And if you're interested in a fun theological discussion, check this out.

9:52 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

Goat, Nost theologians and Bible scholars beleve the fall of Lucifer can be found in Isaiah 14. You nay read it here:

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This is the what the serpent daid to Eve:

"Thou shall not surely die, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Satan is consistent if nothing else.

10:53 AM  
Blogger Gyrobo said...

There is just so much I don't know about theology. But here's a question for you: what's the maximum capacity of Hell? How many people can fit there before it get full up and everyone has to be sent back as ghosts?

11:35 AM  
Blogger Goat said...

And your lack of theological knowledge is impressive, robot.
Mark, great reply, and that is one of the verses Milton used to build his epic, though the basic story told is from Milton not the Bible. It is a beautiful and moving extrapolation but just that. In my search I studied a bit of the other great religions. I chose Christ freely of my own volition and desire to become one with Him. My blog board still shows you pending as a contributer here. Send me an email so I can address copy and resend and hopefully get it to work on a 4th try. I want you on board!

10:13 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Hey,GyRobo, are you here to learn about the Lord or are you here to be a jerk? If you want discussion ask intelligent questions even if they question Him. Like I said I am not a conventional Christian, I am me and I believe, that is all I need. I will say if you truelly believe, He handles the rest.

10:19 PM  
Blogger William said...

Goat: You're right about the narrative of the fall of Satan not being outlined in detail in the Bible. However, I do agree w/ what Mark is saying. Also Jesus says, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven' (Luke 10:18).

4:00 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Pastor Timothy, thank you first for coming here and posting. No, I don't have a church, I would like one, however to ask these questions in a traditional Bible studies, I am labeled heretic. Christ is my Lord for the ride through every briar patch He chooses to drag me through. That is why I started this blog. I agree that the internet is not the ideal place for a Bible study, though as it stands it is my best choice as the commentors and contributors here are great folks as can be gathered from their writings. I am an avid reader and an amateur student of paleontology, geology, anthroplogy, anything histororical draws me the 3rd century christian mosaics in Israel for example. Martin Luther was called heretical as well though I am by no means in his class of intellectualism. That is why I am here asking questions. Mail me!

8:36 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Oh and Pastor Tim, I adhere to the the tenets of the Vatican as well as I can. I am Episcopalian by confirmation, Methodist by raising and Southern Babtist by birth and I am a serious fan of John Paul's writings. I have not met a church elder willing to allow me to be in their study because I have ideas from the intellectual world I was in before I was Reborn. The miracle of existence does not allow me to limit Him. My counsel as yet is the Bible and prayer.

8:51 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

How can He be omnipotent, omniscient and omnie present if He is not all things, good and evil. To know evil you must be part evil, thus the lesson of Eden. We are made in the image of God and we are capable of both, good and evil. The lesson is to resist the negative of course. To combine elements of eastern and western thought, without and understanding of evil an understanding of good cannot be achieved. The storms and disasters we are ravaged by are lessons from Him, not direct punishment but lessons on how we as people should relate.

9:05 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Ok, Pastor Tim there is no need to get insultory when I ask a tough question I have long tussled with. This why I have trouble with organized religion. Yes I have tough questions. God created everything, correct. If good is part of everything then so is evil. Where did evil come from if God did not create it? He had to create a distinction thus the exquisite metaphor of the Garne of Eden and the Tree of Life. He placed the tree and the temptation there. We failed the temptation and discovered the evil within, our knowledge became like His. Yessir, I have struggled with this logic for a very long time however and it drives my search for truth not followers. When I have the extra cash to spend, my next book purchase will a couple of John Paul's. I have read the Bible as a child in church, as an atheist and as one reborn in Christ and this question remains, unanswered, or logically debated. Far to many confuse Milton and Blake with the Bible. Our journey with the Lord is a personal one and you should be grateful I found Him and not just discredit my questions with insults. As a Pastor you should have acknowledged the depth of my argument and presented Biblical evidence against it instead you compare me to David Koresh and insult my intelligence, sad. You did not prove yourself to a wiser elder, you proved why I haven't been able to find a Bible study or Church. I accept that God is and created all things as we were made in His Image.

6:21 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Are there two gods one good one, Yaweh, and one evil, Satan, or is there one omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God? The casting out of evil refered later can be taken metaphorically as well, it is beautiful and powerful in it's message. Even Christ was tempted by His devils within, just as the Lords Goodness comes from within so does His evil and only with His help can we fight it as He also fights that battle. Scripture can be interpreted many different ways depending on the intellectual background of the individual and it still leads back to Him. The vast majority of the blighted little country town I live in have never even heard of Milton, Blake,Thomas or even C.S.Lewis for that matter, nor have they read the secularists bibles, Mein Kampf or The Communist Manifesto. I am used to anger and criticism on my understanding of the Lord and have debated this question at length with a Catholic apologist and a very wise Presbyterian friend as well as my parents both exemplary Christians. I said at the beginning and as recently as this week that I am not contemporary and was going to present ideas outside the mainstream of thinking. I have a unique way of seeing the Lord, it has helped bring some lost souls to Him not to me. I shun mentorship or following, I point to the Bible and say read it, carefully, I will give my opinion , not my teaching as I am not qualified to teach only to learn. I would like to work through the Torah, our guide to law and morality then move to Proverbs, Psalms and the Prophets. I intend for this to take a long time, a lifes project in learning of the Lord. Maybe the internet is the best place for diverse debate and discussion. I have said I am not an expert and am here to learn, not teach. If you disagree fine, present your argument, don't insult my or my readers intelligence. This is Bible study, be civil.

7:21 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

' thought Love liv'd in the hot sun Shine
But O he lives in the Moony light
I thought to find Love in the heat of day
But Sweet Love is the Comforter of Night"
--William Blake

9:02 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

As a student, I search for a Disciple in which to learn from. Disciple comes from the Latin verb "to teach", disclere.

9:46 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

One of my favorite teachers is Rabbi Daniel Lappin.

10:24 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Goat. God did not create evil. He created all creatures with free will. Lucifer exercised his free will. Thus he became Satan.

There ARE some things God cannot do. He cannot lie. He cannot be unjust. He cannot be evil. There are many other things God cannot do.

It is because of free will that God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden, in my opinion. If no choice is offered, how is free will demonstrated?

6:34 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

Oh and Jesus wasn't tempted by His devils within. Being perfect, He could not have had devils within. He was tempted by Satan, just as the Bible says. Try not to read more into it than is there.

6:37 AM  
Blogger Goat said...

The serpent did not lie to Eve, it told her the truth, that she would not die but become as God knowing good from evil. Perhaps the logic should be placed in this sequence instead. A knowledge of good cannot be achieved with out the negative, evil or bad. It is part of the basic instinct for survival implanted in all things He Created as your point on freewill is well taken, Mark. The temptations for evil come from within ourselves, and we are created in His Image. I am not saying God is evil or bad, I am saying that I don't believe in Satan. I am saying the struggle for good and bad lives in all of us, and the best way to deal with those struggles lies in the highest power ,the Lord as he has to deal with the most powerful temtations as the story of Christ's forty days in the desert shows. The stimulus may be visual or otherwise but the temptation comes from within our own soul, that is why Christ is my anchor.

6:22 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

So where does that Holy Spirit reside? Where does the desire to commit good or evil come from? I do not see a behorned Beelzebub confronting me , I see internal challenges that only through His guidance can I accomplish. Her I see a Pastor telling me that if I don't believe exactly as 'He' or other organized religions do I am wrong eventhough I am a believer just not in their narrow way. I take Matt.ch.6 to heart and rely on my communion with Him not my communion with Pharisees that expect me to look to them for guidance. Pastor Tim, perhaps you should remove the log from your own eye before you criticize the mote in mine. Christ often spoke in parable and the Prophets heavily used metaphor and simili. Is it appropriate when it only fits your "Fire and Brimstone " mentality? Why is it wrong for a semi-educated and well read person to interprete portions differently from the establishment just as Martin Luther did?
By saying I don't believe in Satan, I am not glorifying evil to a diety status. I am relugating evil to personal resposibility through the Lord's guidance. If that stance is heretical to the church so be it. I have my faith in the Lord, not the church.

8:17 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

This goes directly back to Mark's excellent posts on "freewill". Eve was given the free choice and through her internal debate she failed. The Lord offered the choice ,eat or do not eat and layed out the consequences of that choice. He gave us the choice and with it our responsibility to learn of Him and through Him, not by our heart's desires. I am ashamed a "Pastor" would prejudge a believer and seek to discredit them through negative posting questioning their faith just because it is a little different than theirs. John the Baptist and Christ were called heretics because they stuck to the Lord, I believe in our Creator, I don't believe either had a 'church' to call home. My elders are Moses and Isaiah, Matthew and John, etal, my cathedral is my closet. How is that unBiblical? I go to the Book not to man for guidance, why get it second hand? Wisdom is wrought of conflicting data.

8:46 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Further 'Pastor Tim', Christ said believe in Me, not the church. He tought that the church was His "Body" and if it left that body to follow Him. I may be heretic to the modern church I am not heretic to Him. I am one that prefers the traced fish in the sand type Christianinty, if you don't know what I mean, study a bit and come back.

9:12 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Pastor Tim: Is there one God or two? Is there a god of good and a god of evil or is there one God Omnipotent, Omniscient and all Present? Answer the question, so far you have failed. Attacking me is not an answer, do you have one? Why did Christ eschew the teachings of the Pharisees? You have the right to preach to your congregation, no wonder the far right is blasted for causes I support. We sound like narrow minded twits.

9:23 PM  
Blogger Erudite Redneck said...

Rightcheer is why Pastor Tim annoys me: "I am not picking a fight with you, but you really need to seek the guidance and counsel of those more godly than youself."

There is none without sin. No, not one,. Therefore, not one is more "godly" than another.

Goat, you and disagree on politics, based on my recollection of your posts and mine on other topics.

I do not, however, question your faith journey or your relationship with God. That is between yourself and God.

All of us believers in Christ do, however, need a community of believers to enjoy koinonia and all that comes with it. To say, however, that that can only come through what passes for the "church" in this county today is arrrogent.

Redneck prayer aloft for Goat. I expect the same from yourself.

7:21 PM  
Blogger Goat said...

Thanks ER and a fellow redneck's prayer is floated as well. Hey we gotta have something to argue about or we couldn't be true rednecks.

8:20 PM  

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